Horrorwood: True Crime in Tinseltown
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Hey there, misfits. I'm Kate
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Kail: And I'm Kail.
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Kate: Welcome to Horrorwood.
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(🎵creepy music plays🎵)
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(creepy music fades)
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Kate: Ahhhh, we have waited to record this episode for a very long time.
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Kail: Listen, there's reasons, okay?
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Kate: I did have the walking pneumonia
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but I got the antibiotics and I am feeling mostly better.
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Ah, so yeah I have a chest x-ray coming up soon and we'll see how that goes.
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Anyway, we want to shout out our amazing friend who created that
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creeptastic music that you just heard.
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His name is Nick Davio. Shoutout to Nick!
Kail: Nick!
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Kate: We love you, Nick. You're amazing. Nick is the kind of person, or the kind of musician I should say, that
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can literally play anything. If you're just like, "Oh, I just need some um, some harmony here, and like maybe some other instrument here, and he's like, "Okay, like this?"
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And you're just like...what?
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Kail: And he has it seconds later. It's like, "Oh yeah, this little thing?" And we're like, "What? Yes, that's the thing."
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Kate: I literally was like, "Hey Nick, we're thinking of doing this uh, this podcast. We'd like you to do some music for it. It's like creepy and
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literally less than five minutes later he messaged me back and he was like,
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"How about this?" And sends a link and it's like this
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forty-second amazing clip and I was like, "Wait. Did you just
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come up with that.?"
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And he was like, "Oh yeah, I just sat down at the piano and this is what came out.
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I am so in awe of people that can do that. It's phenomenal.
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I have to back up because in college
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I thought it was Nick DAH-vio,
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and we always called him Nick DAH-vio.
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And then iI ran into him at a theater here in Chicago a few years ago
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and he was just like...we're just chatting and sitting next to each other in the lobby...and he's like, "So
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by the way it's actually pronounced DAY-vio.
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And my jaw was on the ground I was like, "What???"
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Kail: I'm giving Katie a look right now because I just now learned this. So I'm gonna go with Nick from now on.
Kate: I literally pronounced his name wrong
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for years. And he just went with it! So I'm like, "Okay."
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And also I think we should tell them that, ah, when we were texting about him, Kaili,
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you accidentally - well not accidentally, I mean it was an autocorrect - but it autocorrected
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Davio to Fabio, and so I feel like from now on we should just refer to him as Fabio.
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Kail: And you know there was a lot of people who had crushes on him back in the day, so I feel like it fits anyway.
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Kate: Fabio or Davio?
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Kail: Oh well both, actually, but I was I was thinking of our friend Nick.
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(chuckles) So we want to just shout out Nick's stuff. You should all go follow him on Instagram @mr.nick.davio, that's
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n-i-c-k-d-a-v-i-o,
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as well as @huron_coast. H-u-r-o-n underscore coast.
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And his website is nicholasdavio.com. So check that out. We're going to link it all in the show notes, so you can just click on those little links there.
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And Kaili, you have a shoutout.
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Kail: I have a shoutout to our very first follower.
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Kate: Heeeeyy!!!
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Kail: I was so excited for this, so -
Kate: I'm excited.
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- my friend Laura, aka Larry is what I call her, she calls me Bob.
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I don't even know where it came from. But anyway, that's our names.
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Um, she followed us! And I - I saw it pop up on, you know, my little notifications, and I was like, "Oh my god, we have a follower!"
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Kate: That's so exciting! We love you Laura/Larry, and we are so thankful that you are listening.
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So I said in Part Two I was going to look up the origin of paparazzi because we were talking about that, but as I was researching it
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I decided I think I want to do like a little mini-sode on that.
Kail: Yeah.
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So maybe we'll do it on the Patreon or something as just a fun little thing.
Kail: I like it.
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That said, let's dive right into it.
Kail: Alright! Marilyn Monroe.
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Kate: Here we go.
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So, we ended Part Two with Marilyn's lifeless body being found nude on her bed.
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In one hand she was holding the receiver of a phone off the hook, and on her nightstand were bottles of pills that included painkillers and sleeping pills.
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It's reported that there were also pill bottles scattered around the room and her death was ruled a "probable suicide."
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However, there are discrepancies in the timeline of events as well as the accounts of the people who were supposedly there which is why her death remains so mysterious to this day.
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Kaili, are you okay?
Kail: There - there's a fly all through. like, keep, wait.
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Kate: You looked like you were having a bit of an attack there. (laughs)
Kail: You know what? The attack is is not knowing what actually happened to Marilyn Monroe.
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Kate: I think it also might be a fly.
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So, I will say going into this I thought I knew what happened. I fully believed
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not that she died by suicide but that she accidentally OD'd.
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Kail: And same. And I don't know if you saw the Anna Delvey Netflix
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little docuseries that was -
Kate: Oh, right right right.
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Kail: Yeah, it was kind of more of a drama, right?
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And there was one episode where she kind of faked this whole scene, and it was very much like this.
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But, but it was all fake, right? And she went through the steps of what it looked like, and it just - every time I hear
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what might have happened with Marilyn Monroe I am thinking of this now, because we've been talking about her a lot and so of course I've done my own little research I'm like, "Oh,
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it's time to go down the rabbit hole of Google" and
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it's just very interesting how somebody later in life does this whole scene to get, you know, to get away with something that -
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Kate: I haven't watched that, actually. I should watch that.
Kail: Yeah.
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Kail: I's just interesting to see how things unfold in various ways and different timeframes.
Kate: Yeah.
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Kate: I will say I no longer think that she OD'd, um,
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accidentally, and at the end of this episode I'll tell you what I think.
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So there are a few key figures involved in the account of her death her:
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her housekeeper Eunice Murray,
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her psychiatrist Dr Ralph Greenson,
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the medical examiner Dr Thomas Noguchi
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and interesting elough - enoughya...words.
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You'll hear his name in several episodes that we do because he, ah,
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ended up becoming sort of the "Coroner to the stars."
Kail: Very high-profile Hollywood. Yes, got it.
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Kate: Her friend Peter Lawford, her frenemy and publicist Patricia "Pat" Newcomb,
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and perhaps most notably, President John F. Kennedy and Attorney General Robert Kennedy.
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Kail: These were not all the people that were at the scene of her death, these are just people that
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you're uncovering right now?
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Kate: No, these are just people involved in the account of her death.
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Kail: Just clarifying.
Kate: Yeah.
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Now let's talk about those Kennedy boys.
Kail: Ho ho, bring it.
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Kate: John F. Kennedy - who went by Jack, so I'm going to be referring to him as Jack -
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met Marilyn Monroe in the summer of 1954 at a party hosted by producer Charles Feldman.
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Jack was a senator at the time, and the meeting was arranged by Peter Lawford, who was a friend of Marilyn's and the brother-in-law to Jack and Bobby Kennedy.
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Peter was married to their sister, Pat.
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Peter was also a member of the Rat Pack with Frank Sinatra.
Kail: Ahh.
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Kate: Side note about Peter and Frank: prior to Peter marrying Pat Kennedy, the two had been friends but had a falling out, and Pat was the one who encouraged Peter to rekindle the friendship with Frank.
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And Frank was impressed with Peter's newfound ties to the Kennedys, and the two were once again friends, look at that.
Kail: Ah.
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Peter acted as a go-between for the Kennedys and women that he tried to set them up with.
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So basically he said to Jack, "Hey, you've got to meet Marilyn Monroe."
Kail: He was like a pimp?
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Kate: For lack of a better term.
Kail: He was a presidential-like pimp.
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And he's like, "You gotta meet Marilyn. I can make that happen. Charles Feldman is having this party."
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Marilyn didn't know that Peter was intentionally trying to get Jack Kennedy to meet her
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so she attends the party with her then husband Joe DiMaggio.
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Marilyn told a friend afterwards that she felt uncomfortable at the party because Jack kept staring at her,
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and she said, "I may be flattering myself but he couldn't take his eyes off me."
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Kail: I like it. Was she still wearing the sweater?
Kate: I think she's moved on from the sweater at this point.
Kail: Ok.
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Kate: This was noticed by both Jackie Kennedy (because yes, JFK's wife was with him at this party)
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and Joe DiMaggio. Joe did not like that Jack seemed interested in Marilyn, so he kept grabbing her arm every few minutes and would say, "Let's go. I've had enough."
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Because remember, Joe was very possessive, so -
Kail: Right. I was gonna say we learned that before, that he does not care for all the attention that she gets.
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Kate: He does not.
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Now Marilyn told a friend that she and Jack did not get together until after her divorce from Joe, which occurred just three months after this party.
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Jack and Marilyn would then see each other off and on for years.
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Peter was known for hosting a lot of scandalous parties at the home he shared with Pat, which was located at 625 Palisades Beach Rd. in Santa Monica, CA. I'm going to post a picture of it on Instagram.
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In attendance at these parties were celebrities, political figures and even sex workers.
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Now, Jack and Marilyn were often in attendance at these parties and JFK spent so much time at this house
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that it was nicknamed the Western White House.
Kail: Can we go back to the house...and what's the affiliation, is it - does Jack own the house?
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Kate: Peter Lawford owns the house. It's Peter's house.
Kail: Oh.
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Kate: He lives there with his wife Pat. yeah.
Kail: Got it.
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Kate: And Pat is the sister of Jack and Bobby.
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Kail: I was thinking it was strange that, you know, a president would own a house and on the beachside in the Palisades and Hollywood but, you know,
Kate: I mean, he spent a lot of time there, so -
Kail: Got it.
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Kate: Now I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here but I'm gonna bring it back around, I promise. I just want to give some background.
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So Frank Sinatra was also a guest at these parties and he's known to have also had a relationship with Marilyn.
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He also became good friends with Jack Kennedy.
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And Frank knew that being friends with the man who could potentially become the next president would bring a lot of benefits
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because it's good to have friends in high places.
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Frank's career was declining at the time and he was looking to relaunch it and it turns out being friends with a high-profile political figure can really boost your celebrity, look at that.
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Kail: Oh, so that's just what we need to do then?
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Kate: Yeah, we just gotta find, ah, a president that we want to befriend. But actually, no, I don't want to because it's real - gets real muddy.
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Things get a little too spicy.
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So, Frank began campaigning for Jack to become president and put a lot of work into the election,
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which included hosting fundraising dinners for him and making sure everyone he knew was aware that he was good friends with Jack and that Jack would be the next president.
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He's just going around like, "My buddy! My buddy Jack Kennedy! He's going to be president, yo! And I'm friends with him! And does everyone know that I'm friends with him? Because I'm friends with him."
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So during this time Frank was also friends with Chicago mob boss Sam Giancana.
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They were really close.
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And Frank introduced Sam to the election campaign in an effort to secure votes for Jack.
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Frank was briefly involved with a woman named Judith Exner at this time and he introduced her to JFK.
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Then the two of them became involved. Are you with me?
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Kail: This is like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. I am, I am trying to weave the strings together. But right now I have um, a very particular cobweb that I am caught in.
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So if anybody could get me out that'd be great.
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Kate: I feel like, yes, Marilyn was also right there next to you in this cobweb, because it was definitely a web and it is wild.
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So -
Kail: I'm ready for the ride, I'm ready for the ride.
Kate: Alright, because it is definitely a bumpy one, so buckle up. (laughs)
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So Frank, again is hooking up with Judith Ener.
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He introduced her to JFK. The two of them start hooking up. Then he introduces her to Sam Giancana and then yes, the two of them start hooking up. So Judith is now involved with Frank Sinatra, JFK, and Sam Giancana.
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Kail: I feel like it's like the, ah, "Swingers" of the beachside or something, and in the spider web.
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Kate: It is wild how everyone - I mean literally everyone - is sleeping with everyone. So there's that.
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JFK started using Judith to help arrange meetings between him and Sam,
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because Jack felt he needed Sam's influence in order to win the election.
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Meanwhile, according to the book "Handsome Johnny," a biography by author Lee Server about mobster Johnny Roselli,
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who had close ties to both Sinatra and Giancana,
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Frank Sinatra allegedly began having an affair with Peter Lawford's wife Pat -
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JFK's sister - in an effort to gain influence over the Kennedys.
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So just keep that all in your brain because it's all connected.
Kail: Devil went down to Georgia or somewhere because this is getting real good.
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Kate: It was at one of these parties at the Lawford house that Marilyn met Robert Kennedy - he went by Bobby.
Kail: Bobby!
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Kate: The two began a relationship and these parties were not discreet. The wives of these
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famous and powerful men would be in the next room while their husbands were just a few feet away doing whatever they wanted with whoever they wanted.
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Kail: You know, it's funny how history repeats itself because have you watched Warrior at all?
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Kate: No, what is it?
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Kail: It's a show on HBO and I believe it was like, ah, more of a Bruce Lee original, like it's - it's a, it's a remake of something maybe he wrote? I should look more into this, but
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it's kind of the same thing where it's basically these brothels in San Francisco in late 1800s, early 1900s,
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and people are just, you know, in the next room getting it on. It's kind of like Bridgerton too, I mean it was kind of like -
Kate: I love Bridgerton.
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Kail: I know, but this is what happens, right? And it keeps repeating itself. And I know,
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you know, I live in the Bay and there is an area here where it is swinger nation.
Kate: Oh wow
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Kail: And it's interesting because it is, you know, some high-profile people and
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you just wouldn't think it but it is what it is, like, you know, it's a lifestyle and if people want to do it they're gonna do it, right?
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Kate: And also, this is before the time of cell phones so it's not like people were, you know, snapping a bunch of pictures, necessarily.
Kail: True, true.
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Bobby and Marilyn were seemingly really into each other. Marilyn would get all giggly when his name was brought up, and according to James Spada's biography of Peter Lawford titled
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"Peter Lawford: The Man Who Kept the Secrets,"
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Bobby was backstage when Marilyn was getting ready to sing "Happy Birthday" to JFK and asked hair stylist Mickey Song to step out.
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So Bobby and Marilyn were in there alone for about fifteen minutes, and when Bobby came out Marilyn was all disheveled and just giggled and asked to Mix - Mixy?
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His name was Mickey. And asked Mickey to fix her up again.
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So the two were like a pair of teenagers infatuated with each other and they did what most young teen lovers do. You know, they'd
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hold hands, go for walks along the beach, discuss the testing of atomic weapons and the possibility of nuclear war...
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young love, am I right?
Kail: (laughs) Right.
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Both Kennedy Brothers were very loose-lipped when it came to their conversations with Marilyn. Those boys liked to talk.
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Now Marilyn was very liberal, and this was during the time of McCarthyism.
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Joseph McCarthy was a Republican senator who believed there were American citizens, particularly in the TV and film industry,
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who were communists and were a threat to the country.
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Marilyn was flagged by the FBI, which was led by J. Edgar Hoover, because of her relationship with Arthur Miller.
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The government thought Miller was a communist, and when her relationship with him began
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they started keeping tabs on her. Those files are open to the public and I'll link them in the show notes because it's wild.
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Kail: This is incredible. I feel like everyone was drinking the the classic, the Coca-Cola classic, and were just high all day because
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this sounds absolutely insane.
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Kate: Do people get high on Coca-Cola classic?
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Kail: Well no, you know the myth or -
Kate: Oh I don't think it was a myth, I think it really did have coke in it.
Kail: I think it really was too, before they knew, right? So, anyway
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Kail: ...what I'm thinking, it's like they're drinking something because they sound absolutely just cracked out of their mind, because who thinks that, like, Arthur Miller, a playwright or whatever, is a communist and is wanted by the FBI? I mean -
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Kate: Well it was, so I mean, this was the Red Scare, and McCarthy and Hoover made it - they really fanned the flames. But I mean, America was terrified ,and it was the brink of nuclear war.
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Kail: But can you imagine if it was nowadays and we have all the social media that we have, and just the threads that would be going out in this circumstance?
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Kate: You think about, I mean, look what Trump did.
Kail: That's true.
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Kate: There guys who are - and women, not just men - who know how to create fear in large groups of people.
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Kate: And that's what they were doing.
Kail: Wow. Again, history repeating itself. Wow.
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Kate: So basically Hoover and McCarthy thought the communists in the U.S. were acting as spies and giving secrets to the Soviet Union.
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WWII had just ended, tensions between the U.S. and the Soviet Union were high, it was the Cold War and the government was on high alert.
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At one point while she and Bobby were having lunch at Peter Lawford's house they discussed
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"the morality of atomic testing." And there is an FBI file on Marilyn regarding this matter which is included in that FBI link I mentioned.
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Kail: Is this before the time of of bugs? Like planting a bug and so -?
Kate: Oh no, they were bugging her.
Kail: They were? Ok.
Kate: Yes.
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Kate: Oh, bugs are a big part of this episode.
Kail: Okay.
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Kate: So there is an FBI file on Marilyn regarding this matter which is included in the FBI link I mentioned and the FBI felt that the fact that she and Bobby had had this discussion about the atomic testing made her a security threat to the country.
Kail: Wow.
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Kate: However, they never found any concrete evidence that she was a communist. And then after that lunch Bobby went from the Lawford estate to Nevada to witness a nuclear weapons test.
Kail: Oh, bad timing.
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Kate: This was during the same time that Fidel Castro asked the Soviet Union for military help in Cuba.
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Now, Marilyn associated with people who were considered communists. Those people associated with Fidel Castro's people.
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The Kennedys began to realize "shit, probably shouldn't have said all that stuff about the nuclear weapons testing."
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So Bobby tells Marilyn, "It's over. Don't ever call or contact me or my brother ever again."
Kail: Yeah, he had to protect his position.
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Kate: Marilyn was distraught. Now we're going to back up a little bit because we need to talk about Jimmy Hoffa.
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Bobby Kennedy and Jimmy Hoffa hated each other.
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Jimmy Hoffa was head of the Teamsters union and they were the toughest, most powerful labor union in the country.
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He was also very corrupt and had ties to the mob.
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And when it came to social class he was on the opposite end of the spectrum as the Kennedys.
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Jack and Bobby Kennedy were spoiled rich kids who were naive about how labor unions worked. They...they'd never been working class.
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But Bobby made it his mission to go after corruption in the labor unions and therefore try to bring down Hoffa.
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Kail: I love how corrupt people go after corrupt people. It's like my favorite pastime of of stories, right?
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You know, even though he was kind of fighting for the the good of the working class, like, he's got ties to the mafia, they have ties to things that we don't even want to know about, right?
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Kate: And also, like really Bobby was looking for his...what his platform was going to be. He needed something that was all his
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because his brother is like a hot shot and so he has decided to make it his mission to go after corruption in the labor unions.
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These two were thorns in each other's sides and their fight became very personal.
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They both made it their mission to bring the other down.
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Now Hoffa wanted to get as much dirt as he could on Jack and Bobby, and he knew Peter Lawford's estate was the Kennedy playground
Kail: Ah ha.
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Kate: And he also knew they were involved with Marilyn Monroe.
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So he hired private detective Fred Otash to have both Lawford's and Marilyn's homes bugged.
Kail: Back to the beach.
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Kate: When the wires were installed Fred noted that there were already surveillance bugs set up, meaning another entity was already monitoring these homes, presumably the FBI.
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It's also reported that both Peter and Marilyn found out their homes were bugged, and Marilyn even had her own surveillance wires installed as a means of protecting herself.
Kail: She's such a little badass.
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Kate: Basically, should any questions arise about her and the Kennedys she'd have her own proof of what happened.
Kail: Smart.
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She also supposedly kept a diary where she recorded everything about her relationships with the Kennedy brothers,
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because she, again, she wrote everything down, and when she was with the Kennedys
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the things that they would talk about she liked to write down so that she could kind of go over it, and she always felt like, you know, she wanted to be seen as as very intelligent.
Kail: Right.
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Kate: And so if there wasn't - if there was something she didn't understand she wanted to learn more about it so that she could have,
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you know, these intellectual conversations with these powerful men.
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Kail: I mean, a therapist would be proud of that fact - to journal things down. So I feel like she was kind of ahead of her, you know, mental game at that point.
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Kate: Oh she was all about the self-care, as we learned with the bathing.
Kail: With the bathing.
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Kate: Meanwhile, the FBI was bugging the phone lines of Sam Giancana because they were trying to crack down on mob activity.
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In 1960, the CIA hired Sam Giancana along with Johnny Roselli to kill Fidel Castro.
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The gangsters were more than willing and even offered to do it for free because they felt it would give them an "in" with the government and be sort of like a get-out-of-jail-free card.
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Both Jack and Bobby approved of this plot.
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This would be America's first confirmed attempt at state-sponsored assassination of a foreign leader.
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All of their attempts, however, would prove unsuccessful.
Kail: Okay.
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Kate: So, Giancana's phone is bugged, Frank Sinatra is friends with Giancana.
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A conversation was recorded between the two where Giancana is demanding Frank use his friendship with the Kennedys to take some heat off the mob.
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Frank replies that he's sleeping with the Kennedys' sister Pat - Peter Lawford's wife - in order to do just that.
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His exact words were, "I'll sleep with this goddamn bitch until I get something going."
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Kail: Was was he fibbing or was he serious? Because I was under the impression when you first introduced this to the story that he liked her.
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Kate: That he liked Pat?
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Kail: The, um, the wife, yes. That he was having a, you know, an affair...an internal affair of maybe love. But now it sounds like this is all just a ploy.
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Kate: Well this is the first time I've mentioned that Frank and Pat were hooking up.
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You might be thinking of Judith, because there are a lot of people sleeping with a lot of people and it's hard to keep it straight.
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Kail: God, okay going. I'm going back down on the, ah, the web here.
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Kate: Yep, yep.
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Kail: My eight legs - I'm on my fourth.
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So this is Pat Kennedy Lawford that is now sleeping with Frank Sinatra.
Kail: Okay.
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Kate: And Frank is heard on the wire taps that were planted by the FBI saying, "I'll sleep with this goddamn bitch until I get something going."
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Now J. Edgar Hoover was like, "Hoo, hoo, hoo! I have some info!"
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And he runs to Bobby Kennedy and he's like, "I've got something for you to hear,"
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and plays the tape for him, and just like that Frank Sinatra was out of the Kennedy circle.
Kail: Damn.
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Bobby sent Peter Lawford to tell Sinatra he was out and Frank did not take the news well.
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And it effectively ended the friendship of Sinatra and Lawford, sort of a shoot-the-messenger situation.
Kail: Right, right.
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So I know that was a complicated diversion, in a sense, but I think it's important to know how all of these high-profile, powerful men are connected to each other and to Marilyn.
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Basically everyone was spying on everyone, everyone was sleeping with everyone, no one trusted each other and the country was on the brink of a nuclear war. So it's all going great.
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Kail: Is it 2022?
Kate: One might think.
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Kate: This brings us to Marilyn's final days. Now, when Bobby Kennedy told Marilyn not to contact him or Jack again this devastated her,
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and it also pissed her off.
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She felt like they'd just been using her and she started calling the White House constantly trying to talk to them.
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Kail: Wow, that's incredible that she was able to, you know, like she had that much advantage over being able to just pick up the phone and call the White House, right?
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Kate: And what's interesting about that is that she used to be able to just call them directly, and all the calls started getting screened through their secretary and they would never put her through.
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She specifically wanted Bobby to come to her and talk with her face to face because she didn't understand why the two of them couldn't be together.
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She thought he was going to leave his wife Ethel for her. She thought he was in love with her because these are things he told her, so why wouldn't she believe it?
Kail: Of course.
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Kate: There are some sources that say she was even pregnant with a child and she wasn't sure if it was Jack or Bobby's, but that she thought it was probably Bodby's.
Kail: Wow.
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Kate: And Bodby's? I don't know if I said his name. (laughs)
Kail: Babby, Bobby.
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Kate: And supposedly - some sources say this, it's not confirmed - but supposedly he forced her to get an abortion which was illegal at the time.
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Look where we are.
Kail: Look where we are. See? 2022!
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Kate: Bobby was scheduled to be in San Francisco at this time and Marilyn threatened that if he didn't come to see her she would spill all the tea.
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She said she was going to hold a press conference the following Monday, which would have been August 6th, 1962, and she was going to expose the affair, not to mention the pillow talk between her and the Kennedy brothers
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like that whole CIA plot to kill Fidel Castro thing.
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Kail: Right. And she had all the evidence really, I mean -
Kate: Oh, she had all the evidence.
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Kail: Conversations recorded, her journal, everything.
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Kate: If the affairs of the Kennedy brothers were exposed it would have brought down the presidency.
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Kail: Well, it didn't necessarily for Clinton.
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Kate: At this time I think it would have.
Kail: Because yeah, this is a different era.
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Kail: This is definitely like, you know, kind of the Cleaver, right, the June Cleaver timeframe?
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Kate: And these were so-called family men and it it would have been a massive blow to their empire,
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and if Bobby Kennedy had indeed forced her to get an abortion his career would be over and he could forget about ever becoming president.
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So, when the Kennedys started ignoring her and refusing her calls she was like, "Alright, fuck around and find out."
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Kail: Yes, she's such a savage!
Kate: She was angry, she was hurt, and she started sharing her feelings with everyone - including Peter Lawford.
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Kate: Lawford called Bobby and said, "Uh, I think you need to get here down" - was that a sentence? (laughs) I think you need to get here down.
Kail: You need to get here down. I was like, "Are we going back to the beach.?"
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Kate: Well we are, actually. He said, "I think you need to get down here asap and talk to Marilyn. She is real spicy and real pissed.
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So Bobby came to LA. and he and Peter went to Marilyn's house in the afternoon of Saturday, August 4th 1962.
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Kail: Oh, I did not know this, and I know what that date is.
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Kate: There's a podcast called "The Killing of Marilyn Monroe" hosted by Jackie Moran and it's interesting. She uses a lot of audio clips from various people that go into what went down at Marilyn's house that day,
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so after you finish this episode you should go check that out. There's some interesting stuff in there.
Kail: Will be doing that.
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Kate: According to Fred Otash, who had installed the surveillance tapes on behalf of Jimmy Hoffa,
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he said he heard both Peter and Bobby at Marilyn's house that afternoon.
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Otash stated that from the bug in the kitchen that he had planted, he heard Bobby tell Marilyn that he still loved her but that things between them had to end because he had a family.
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Marilyn replied, "What do you think I am, a piece of meat?"
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Kail: This is some Great Gatsby shit.
Kate: It kind of is, yeah.
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Kate: The fighting escalated, and Otash said he heard Bobby ask, "Where is it.?"
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It's believed he was referring to her diary which she wrote everything down about her relationships with the Kennedys.
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He asked, "Did you destroy it?" To which she replied, "Hell no."
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The arguing became very heated, and I've seen in several sources that she then grabbed a kitchen knife and lunged at him, and Peter had to restrain her.
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Kail: Damn girl.
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Kate: She's then heard on the tape bursting into tears. Just a few hours later Marilyn would be dead.
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But what happened between the time she argued with Bobby to the time she died?
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The "official" story goes like this:
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Eunice Murray, Marilyn's housekeeper, who had been appointed to that position by Marilyn's psychoanalyst Dr. Greenson,
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Kail: I wish my doctor would appoint a housekeeper.
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Kate: (laughs) said that when she knocked on Marilyn's door around midnight the evening of August 4th, there was no answer and the door was locked.
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She found this odd so she called Dr. Greenson.
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He came over, he peered through Marilyn's bedroom window from outside and saw that she appeared to be dead on the bed.
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So he broke the window to get into her room and check on her, and then opened the door for Mrs. Murray and said, "We've lost her."
Kail: Oh.
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Kate: Then Dr. Greenson called the police at 4:25 am - that time is in police records.
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Sergeant Jack Clemmons is the one who took the call and was the first official police officer on the scene.
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Kail: So did he wait four hours? I mean he got there a little after midnight, and now it's 4:25?
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Kate: Exactly. That's weird. Eunice Murray realized it was weird too, so she changed her story.
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She said, "You know what? My bad."
Kail: My bad.
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Kate: "Here's what really happened. Actually, I closed Marilyn's bedroom door at 8:00 pm and then went to bed,
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and then I woke up at 3:00 am and Marilyn's light was still on so I was concerned.
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That's when I called Dr. Greenson. Yeah, that's it.
Kail: Ohhh, Eunice, what are you drinking now?
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Kate: In one story she can't get an answer from Marilyn, and the other she was asleep and it wasn't until hours later that she felt something was wrong because a light was on.
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In an interview years later, Murray said she "found Marilyn's door ajar at about midnight," and then she stopped really quick and said, "I mean locked, I found the door locked."
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So needless to say we can't put a lot of stock in Murray's account of what happened.
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Kail: And they never found her guilty of anything? I mean I'm assuming they got her story, but -
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Kate: No, she was never found guilty of anything. No one was because well we'll get into it.
Kail: Oh, it was...right.
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Kate: Now, Dr. Thomas Noguchi was the medical examiner on this case. Already, that's weird,
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because Noguchi was a junior medical examiner at the time,
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and in high-profile cases, which this certainly was, the chief medical examiner, Dr. Theodore Curphey, would conduct the autopsy himself.
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But Curphey passed it on to Noguchi. He was like, "You know what? You you take this one,"
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and Noguchi said he never did understand why, he thought it was strange.
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By the time Noguchi got Marilyn's body, which was around 9:00 am August 5th, she was already in an advanced state of rigor mortis.
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He noted the body had fixed lividity in the face, neck, chest, upper portions of arms and right side of the abdomen.
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So when a person dies blood stops pumping, obviously, and gravity pulls the blood to the lowest part of the body. That's lividity.
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So it makes sense she had fixed lividity on the front of her body because she was found lying face down.
Kail: She was lying down, mm hmm.
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Kate: However, Noguchi also noted faint lividity in her back and the backs of her arms and legs. So there's dual lividity, and when that happens -
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Kail: So could that mean that somebody was turned?
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Kate: Well kind of, yeah, it is a sign that the body was moved.
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Dr. Noguchi sent Marilyn's blood and organs off for toxicology tests but only ordered the blood and liver be tested.
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A lethal dose of chloral hydrate (which is a sleep agent) was found in her blood and a lethal dose of Nembutal (another type of sleeping pill) was found in her liver.
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Noguchi prepared samples of her stomach, kidneys and intestines, but um, weirdest thing - these samples disappeared.
Kail: They disappeared, I knew it.
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Kate: This is unheard of. Like, that doesn't happen.
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John Miner, who was the Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney at the time, and he was present at the autopsy,
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he said, "In the entire history of the L.A. County Coroner's office, there had never been a previous instance of organ samples vanishing."
Kail: Wow, that's, that's really convenient.
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Kate: Noguchi listed her death as acute barbiturate poisoning (an overdose of sleeping pills)
Kail: An overdose, right.
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Kate: And at a press conference later that day his boss, Chief M.E. Dr. Theodore Curphey, stated her death was a probable suicide.
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Kail: Curphey, who wouldn't even go to the site, who wouldn't even examine her. Interesting.
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Kate: "Probable" is the interesting word here because in an autopsy report there are five reasons for death:
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natural causes, homicide, suicide, accidental death or undetermined.
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In this instance, it should have been "undetermined" because "probable" suggests they can't say with 100% certainty, so the wording is interesting here.
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Both John Miner and Noguchi's initial reactions were that this was not a suicide.
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Dr. Noguchi later said he made a mistake by not having all the organs tested, and he was so bothered by this oversight that he went back to the lab a few weeks later but her organs had been destroyed.
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So her organs were destroyed and those tissue samples that he had taken had been destroyed, so that's weird.
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Kail: Very suspicious and my initial reaction is also that this has not been a suicide.
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Kate: Now, when Noguchi was examining Marilyn's body he checked for signs of physical abuse as well as needle marks to determine if she had been injected with drugs. He did not find any.
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I did see in one source that her physician, Dr. Hyman Engelberg, had given her an injection the day prior when he visited her.
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There is a record of it, so if Noguchi missed that injection it's possible he could have missed another.
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Kail: Or could it be something that was liquid, like in a drink?
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Kate: It's possible, and that theory has been floated around.
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Also, think about when you get a vaccine, you don't really see the mark. I mean, like my covid vaccine - it doesn't look anything different than, like, a freckle.
Kail: True, right.
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Kate: Yeah, if it's even visible at all. He did, however, discover a bruise just above her left hip, and judging by its color he determined it was a fresh bruise.
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I'm going to read you what he wrote on the autopsy report under the External Examination section.
Kail: Oh.
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Kate: It is so cringe-worthy so just get ready.